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We bring to the attention of readers the last part of an interview with Abu Umar Sasitlinsky on the «Voice of Islam» website. The beginning of the interview can be found here.
Sheikh, the hot news from your homeland, Dagestan, in recent weeks has been the campaign to ban nightclubs and the recent cancellation of the anime festival in Makhachkala. In this context, we have two questions for you. First, should Muslims who themselves face restrictions and oppression in a non-Islamic state support such actions against others? And second, if so, can Muslims cooperate with the authorities on these issues, appeal to them, and use their arguments and language, such as fighting for the health of the nation, etc., as many do?
I follow these news, including reading your publication and other reliable Internet resources, because what happens in my homeland, my country and the world is important and interesting to me. Of course, I care about Muslims and I want them to be well, I want there to be peace and order in the country, and I want everyone to live normally according to Islam, as the Almighty commands us. Unfortunately, the rights of Muslims have been violated in our country for a long time. Of course, there are human factors, there are systemic violations. And what is happening now in Dagestan is no exception.
There is another point — Kadyrov banned witches from working in Chechnya and drove them all out, many of them moved to Dagestan, and this industry of charlatans is flourishing there, and nobody touches it. The same goes for nightclubs, Kadyrov closed the clubs, and those who want to go to the clubs can come to us from there. And of course there are a lot of sinful and depraved people. And there is also a huge number of law enforcement officers who are sent from Russia and live on our territory. Demand creates supply, and these people there, of course, receive huge per diems, and they do not know how to spend it. Of course, their values are alcohol, girls, saunas and «leisure» in their free time. Because there is money and there is demand. The sinful Dagestanis sell their compatriots, who are law enforcement officers, in various saunas, and all this, of course, is illegal. There is no conscience, no honor, no religion in this case.
In essence, there is a contradiction in this behavior, because he does not want his sister or daughter to dance with someone there, but he says that it is freedom, and the prohibition of such establishments is the Middle Ages, how is this possible? Now we are witnessing an interesting phenomenon when the same artists, like Eldar, like Khabib, and other athletes are speaking out against it. Because even if he is an athlete, he may engage in forbidden types of sports, or the same artist, who may not always play permitted roles, but still vehemently opposes such debauchery, it is still good and a positive change in the right direction. Of course, many young Muslims and those who simply care about what is happening in their homeland support them. This is a normal phenomenon because they do not want such a future for their sisters and children. All Muslims and zealous Dagestanis are against it now, because if such places exist here, it means that debauchery is easily accessible.
The same thing happened with slot machines and gambling. If there are slot machines near your place of work, home, or in the market, if you have money and you are sick with this disease, you go there and throw your money away. Because it is not here in the city and you have to go far away, you cannot go because you are lazy or because you have no time. So you can cure yourself slowly. When everything becomes accessible and serious sins are openly committed, Allah can destroy a whole nation for the sins of these people. People are not sinless, and sins exist and happen in every country and society. When they sin in secret, knowing that it is a sin, it is one thing, but when these sins are committed openly and without shame, and when even this is fought for as if it were freedom, Allah can completely destroy them or send great calamities and disasters in the form of earthquakes, hurricanes, floods, and fires. We often see these in the news and they are presented to us as natural disasters. When great sins are committed openly and no one condemns them or tries to stop them, the whole nation and the inhabitants of this city and republic are in danger.
It is very unfortunate that artists and athletes criticize these things while the spiritual administration remains silent. We hope that in the future they will actively fight against such phenomena. Every Muslim should condemn them in some way. For example, as you said, some work according to the law, those who serve the law refer to the law, this is obvious. Artists and athletes and national public movements refer to the values of the mountaineers, our ancestors. A law-abiding Muslim refers to his religion and what the Almighty has forbidden. Everyone looks at this situation differently and tries to influence it and stop this debauchery in his own way. It is very important to stop the people who are spreading this filth and depravity in the society before it is too late. It is the youth; if we do not pay attention to their moral education, if we do not preserve the values of Islam, the values of Muslims, we will lose them. We may soon reach a point of no return when it will be too late to correct it. Putting imams in jail or repressing preachers who educate the youth while giving freedom to immorality is a dangerous phenomenon.
I do not know, it seems that those at the top, those who are in power, do not care about the youth and the future generation. Pills like Tramal are sold near schools, they are brought by trucks under the cover of those who should have stopped it. This is the reality that everyone knows, they just remain silent. Fear and indifference, desperation and corruption of society, ignorance and failure to properly follow their religion, these are the main reasons that prevent everyone from uniting and stopping this lawlessness. Undoubtedly, it is necessary to condemn debauchery and raise this issue at all levels. Allah says in the Qur’an: «Fear Allah as much as you can. As much as we can fear Allah, we must stop this debauchery. Allah does not ask anything more of us. The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said: «If any of you sees something forbidden, let him stop it with his hand. If he cannot, let him stop it with his tongue. And if he cannot, let him disapprove of it in his heart. That means, do not stay in the company where sinful things are being done. You have to get up and leave. And this is the weakest faith of a believer. Unfortunately, this is the situation, but in any case, we know that just as there is a deterioration, there is also a positive trend in the opposite direction. We see that the youth are attracted to Islam, many brothers and sisters dress appropriately and perform prayers. No matter how much they try to ban it, there is a great interest in Islam, and the call to Islam is coming from the Internet, and people are accepting Islam more and more by the will of the Almighty, and no one can extinguish His light.
Another recent issue is the upsurge of national movements and conflicts in the Caucasus, which seemed to be a thing of the past. We see that this is a powerful force with serious mobilization potential, especially against the background of the destruction of Islamic jamaats and movements that tried to unite all Muslims and Caucasians. And with regard to Ingushetia, we see that not only secular people are involved in these movements, but also practicing Muslims from different competing orientations. How do you feel about this, and how do you think that such national conflicts and land disputes between Muslims, since we are talking about Muslim peoples in this case, should be resolved?
As you said in the last sentence — «between Muslims». And between Muslims, in any case, except according to the Qur’an and Sunnah, issues cannot be resolved at all. Because Allah says in the Qur’an: «If you have disputes and disagreements among yourselves, return them to Allah and the Messenger of Allah,» that is, to the Qur’an and the Sunnah. Muslims must settle all disputes according to the Shari’ah. This is the command of the Almighty, and there is no other option for true Muslims. As for our attitude towards national movements, if, for example, a Kumyk national movement takes a stand against nightclubs, I certainly support it. And if, for example, Ingushetia has a national movement for justice on some issue — yes, I support that. That is, I support justice, and there I support what they are against debauchery. I do not support the national movement itself. Why not? Because in Islam there is one nation — Muslims, Islam. A long time ago it was said in the Qur’an and the Sunnah — in the Qur’an Allah said: «I have created you as peoples and tribes so that you may know each other.» Someone is Russian from Russia, I am Avar from Dagestan, someone is Chechen, someone is Ingush, they are called Muhammad or Ahmad. To know each other. Here I am Abu Umar Sasitlinsky — from the village of Sasitli. Or Dagestan. Not to boast, because there are many worthy people in Dagestan, and there are many scoundrels and villains. It is the same in every nation, there are many worthy people, outstanding personalities, scholars and heroes, as well as vile, unworthy people and traitors. They exist in every nation, it’s just that the coefficient and the ratio may be slightly different. Perhaps there were many heroes at one time, during a golden age, and then there were fewer. But the point is that in every nation there are good and bad, heroes and anti-heroes. Therefore, if you start to be proud of something and point out the weaknesses of another nation, but keep silent about the weaknesses and anti-heroes of your own nation, anyone who knows history can find out and present it.
At the time of the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, there was a dispute between the Muhajirs and the Ansar, and they began to call on their own people. Someone called to the Muhajirs and someone called to the Ansar. The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, heard this and said: «Why do I hear the calls of the ignorant? Leave this stinking thing. Nationalism is such an ignorant thing, and only ignorant people who do not understand what Islam and monotheism are call for it. A true believer in Islam can never have nationalism. Why not? Because he can be a Dagestani, an Avar from my region, but if he does not pray, is a scoundrel and a corrupt person, what does it matter where he comes from, he is neither a friend nor a brother for me. But if someone is Russian, Georgian, or Armenian and is a Muslim, if he fears and obeys Allah, he is my brother, and what difference does it make what nation he belongs to, he can be much better than me if he fears Allah more and follows the Sunnah.
National movements were relevant in the 1990s when politicians used them to gain votes, positions, and power under the pretext of defending the interests of a particular nation. Then, when Islam began to develop in the Caucasus, it became less important. Now, in our time, when Muslims are being persecuted and oppressed, this phenomenon has reappeared. Of course, it has always been there, just not as active. Nationalism appears where there is ignorance, where there is no Islam and no understanding of religion. But it exists in every village, in every region, in every nation. Some express it strongly, some hide it, some have little, some have much. It comes out during certain conflicts and tensions. When everything is normal, it can sleep, it takes a nap. Sometimes, from time to time, politicians or schemers create conflicts between nations. Divide and conquer ideology. The mechanism is the same, there is nothing new in it. Therefore, Muslims must resolve such conflicts according to Sharia through scholars and not succumb to such provocations. This stinking ignorance must be left behind and forgotten. Everyone should return to true Islam and live as brothers. Then nationalism will disappear.
However, the reality is that the Islamic project in the Caucasus, which could, if not neutralize nationalism in general, at least balance it or establish the boundaries of the Sharia that it should obey, is at best in a state of lethargic sleep. But in this regard, there is another important question about the planning horizon of Islamic forces. For example, it is clear that it is ridiculous to talk about their struggle for power or participation in power with an Islamic agenda, which naive people occasionally try to achieve by participating in regional elections as part of the «Islamic column» of some federal parties. At best, today we can talk about what you’ve described as inconspicuous da’wah, or the struggle for the Islamization of the moral climate in the Muslim republics in a broad front with other conservative forces. But the situation can change quickly and dramatically. Syria is a good example, where tyranny existed for several decades, and no one could raise their head or speak out, and no one hoped that it would ever change. But in a few months, starting with spontaneous youth protests, the regime collapsed and it turned into a real revolution. But the Syrian example is also good because it allows us to analyze the mistakes made by the Islamic forces, which ultimately led to the defeat of the revolution on a national scale, although this time, unlike the 1982 uprising, the Sunnis were able to reclaim a piece of land in the north that has a chance to survive under Turkish protection.
So, Sheikh, if we assume that tomorrow in Moscow, in Russia, for some reason there is a collapse of the existing regime, and the federal center, if there is one, does not deal with the Caucasus, how do you assess the prospects of the Islamic forces in Dagestan and the Caucasus as a whole? And how should they behave in such a case? Should they take the most radical, uncompromising path, like the well-known group in Syria (by the way, with significant participation of Caucasians and Dagestanis)? Or should they take advantage of the growing opportunities to gradually strengthen their positions, stand on their feet, train leaders, and gradually demand more, like the Muslims in Turkey and other similar countries? When these events began in Syria, there was hope for a good outcome and freedom for our Muslim brothers. Later, ISIS appeared on the scene and Muslims were divided among themselves. The uncompromising position of some of them led to a conflict within the Sunni community. They started shooting at each other under various pretexts. To the delight of the enemies and Satan, and to their own destruction.